Moses's First Comments 5/25

(a comment was made that the tropical zodiac is not sufficient for predictive accuracy)

I strongly disagree for a few reasons. First of all, the predictive accuracy in Vedic astrology is based primarily on the Vimsottari Dasa System, secondarily on the sidereal zodiac.

You see what i'm saying? It's not specifically the sidereal zodiac that gives Vedic astrology its predictive power, it's the dasa system(s). That's why when i hear sidereal fanatics saying that sidereal astrology is so much more accurate predictively, i have to wonder where they're getting that from. It would be more honest to say that Vedic astrology is predictively accurate because of its amazing dasa system(s), and that these are based on the sidereal zodiac.

Or maybe that Vedic astrology is more predictively accurate than Western astrology--not that the sidereal zodiac is more accurate than the tropical zodiac. To be able to say that, one would have to test the two zodiacs WITHIN THE SAME SYSTEM.

However, even this is not that possible, because for example, in the Vedic tradition, their approach has become accurate and consistent because they have used one zodiac, the sidereal zodiac, for so long. To transplant the tropical zodiac into their system and test it from there would not be an appropriate test at all.

Of course there would appear to be flaws in the tropical zodiac if you test it from the perspective of the vedic system. The vedic system is made to perform according to it's own methods, which include exclusively the sidereal zodiac. But test it from the western system, which has been built around the tropical zodiac, and the tropical zodiac does work very well. If i try to apply Chinese to read the Koran, it won't work, but that doesn't mean that Chinese is wrong.

But if the Vedic tradition had used the tropical zodiac all along, i for one have no doubt that their system would be just as accurate, but it would probably be very different, since adjustments would have been made to fit their system around the new zodiac. So it would be very difficult to test the two zodiacs because we would have to test them FROM WITHIN SYSTEMS THAT ARE ALREADY ACCUSTOMED TO ONE ZODIAC OR THE OTHER.

Rather than bickering like religious fanatics over whose religion/zodiac is better, maybe we could learn to appreciate each approach for what it contributes to the whole.

I find that both approaches work very, very well. That is why i feel that both approaches can be appreciated, and that both approaches can teach things to the other. I would not say that western astrology does not work just as well as vedic astrology, as i think you have suggested above, although i am perfectly happy to agree to disagree on this matter. To me, they both operate in many ways differently, and must always be compared like an apple to an orange. It makes no sense to say that an apple works better than an orange, or vice versa, because they are different. Depending on your mood, you might like one or the other. And while an apple contains so many kinds of minerals, the orange is great for Vitamin C. But some people's systems do not like acidic fruits like oranges, and some people also do not like apples. But they are both good fruits, and i'm glad to have the option for both.

For myself, i look at transits from within the western approach, from both a tropical and sidereal perspective. And i can tell you from my experience that neither is particularly more accurate predictively on their own. I don't think the issue is the zodiacs as much as it is the techniques employed to the zodiacs.

So for, example, perhaps there would be an equivalent dasa system that would give greater predictive accuracy to the tropical approach. I have been lucky enough to uncover a very accurate one myself, and Project Hindsight has discovered others that they are saying are very accurate. Also, when we look at the western tropical system, there is a tremendous amount of predictive accuracy built into it. There's, for example, western transits, secondary progressions and solar arc directions and solar returns, among other approaches.

I will agree, though, that the Vedic system has the simplest, most elegant, and accurate predictive system that i have ever come across, namely that of the Vimsottari dasa system (and i know that there are others). I think this dasa system is fantastic, and i can't say that i would ever want to look at a chart again without consulting it.

But why put down the tropical zodiac when it does have SO much to offer? Even if the Vimsottari dasa system, using the Vedic astrological system, is the best system around, that doesn't make the western, tropical predictive techniques bad. They can both be good together. I think they are fantastic together.

Other's Response: I like your opinion, i hope you'll be able to help establish a working tropical system.. Some astrologers just disgrace it.

Moses Say: I think you are right. Although there are also very good and accurate
astrologers who work with the tropical zodiac. I still say the issue is not with the zodiacs, but with the techniques applied to the zodiacs. I think this is a very important point. Let's face it, we're comparing the Vedic and Western system primarily, only secondarily and inappropriately the sidereal and tropical zodiacs. Therefore, i think there is no logical basis involved when Vedic astrologers put down the tropical zodiac, which i find happens a lot.

For example, if a Vedic astrologer were to say, we are more accurate because we use the sidereal zodiac, that is a totally illogical statement. If Vedic astrology is more accurate, it is because of Vedic technique, including dasas, which happen secondarily to be based on the sidereal zodiac. If a Vedic practioner tests the tropical zodiac within their own system, and it doesn't work, that doesn't prove in any way that the tropical zodiac doesn't work as well as the sidereal zodiac. It only proves that the tropical zodiac doesn't work WITHIN the highly detailed vedic system.

Further, to truly show that the tropical zodiac doesn't work as well as the sidereal zodiac would actually be impossible since they sometimes give very different kinds of information. For example, if i look at a chart, and i see that someone's secondary progressed moon has just gone from Pisces into Aries, using western astrological technique with the tropical zodiac, that tells me alot about a psychological shift that this person has just undergone, and therefore also a change in their external life. But i'm not going to say that the tropical zodiac is somehow superior to the sidereal
zodiac because of this, because although i just saw what the tropical zodiac can do, i did not see what the sidereal zodiac can do. Instead, i would want to see what a different astrological system which uses the sidereal zodiac can do, and then appreciate it as well.

If we can prove that the sidereal zodiac works, such as within the Vedic system, and if we can prove that the tropical zodiac works, such as within the Western system, but that both systems sometimes give different kinds of information, then the two ZODIACS cannot truly be compared at all, in terms of which is more accurate. Each will be accurate in different ways, from WITHIN a different system. The system comes before the zodiac. If meteorologists use doppler radar to predict the weather, and seismologists use seismographs to predict earthquakes, does it make much sense to say that radar is more accurate than seismographs, or vice versa? They are both accurate on their own terms. But we might be able to say what doppler radar
is good or better at predicting and what seismographs are good or better at predicting. Would it make any sense to try to use radar to predict earthquakes, or a seismograph to predict the weather? This would be an inappropriate test.

For these reasons, i will restate my little opinion: it is an example of poor logic when Vedic astrologers claim that the sidereal zodiac is more accurate than the tropical zodiac.

I agree that there is much to improve within the state of western astrology at this time, but also i would say that there may be much to improve in the state of vedic practice at this time, at least in its practice in the west. While i would say that western astrology can learn greater precision from vedic astrology, i would say that vedic astrology can perhaps learn better and more positive counselling skills from western astrology. And i think that both systems can learn accurate, technical technique from the other.

Btw, friend, this is one of the best discussions i've had in a long time. I'm
very much enjoying it. I hope you are, too.

Moses's Response To Another

(Concerning life outcomes vs. counseling approach)

This is one of those profound differences in how the systems are predominantly used in India vs. the West. In India, this seems more the issue. Here, i've never had someone come to me, and demand that i accurately tell them how many children they've had or when they got married. That's just not the approach to astrology in the west from what i've experienced. So to some people, correct predictions such as these would be the most important test. But since there are differences, i think it is rude to put down one system from the worldview of the other. Would we say that the US is a better place than India, or vice versa? They are just very different places, and the answer to that question is a matter of personal preference. And both places can be seen as perfectly great places, depending on your opinion.

(Concerning 'Can someone be both Taurus rising and Aries rising?')

Can someone be both Taurus Rising and Aries Moon? Yes. And someone can be
both a tropical Taurus Rising and a sidereal Aries rising. The two risings
are quite different. The tropical rising is a tangible, living, vibrant
personality, as western astrologers well know. The sidereal rising has more
of a general tone to it. And the understanding of the two risings can be very
different. I'm a Scorpio Rising tropical, and Libra Rising sidereal, with
Cancer Moon tropical, and Gemini Moon sidereal. Now on the personal level
that the tropical zodiac is so good at, there's no doubt whatsoever that i
have the psychology-personality of a Scorpio-Cancer, and not a Libra-Gemini.
Yet if you look at my life in an overall way, i'm very interesting in societal
improvements and relationships (Libra Rising), and i'm constantly learning,
and mentally active (Gemini Moon). The two make perfect sense to me together,
but in different ways.

Yes, i think that the greatest strength of the tropical zodiac is in
psychological reality and personality analysis, but i also think it is useful
on other levels, such as prediction. Even the psychological reality of the
person is very important information when it comes to prediction, because it
is useful to know how the person is likely to respond to changes, so we can
assist them with these changes. And, because often a psychological shift will create different events.

My further little opinion to follow:

Yes, Western astrologers do also make accurate predictions, but i would say we have to work a little harder at it. For example, i have gone back and looked at the charts of GWB and Al Gore, and tried to see who i would've predicted to win the election if i had tried to do so before. Looking at the Vedic charts and the Vimsottari Dasas, i clearly would have picked GWB within about 5 minutes. I looked at the Western transits, and i also would have picked GWB, but it took me more like 15 minutes to form that opinion, and even then it wasn't as totally conclusive as the Vedic investigation, but yet it was clear.

Similarly, i would say that the Vedic system is a very tight and polished system. And because it is more clear cut in terms of negative and positive outcomes, there is less waffling. The Western system is more intricate, and so if i were trained as a jyotishi, i would probably see the western system as weaker. But without a doubt i have made very accurate predictions with the Western system alone, including meeting my fiancee within three days of the assumed date.

But i am reminded of James Braha, who said in his book Astro-Logos, that if he had to choose between using either the Vedic system or the Western system, he would keep the Western system because there is so much more potential, or at least inherited tradition, in the western system of helping people to become more self-aware and to consciously grow in their lives through taking advantage of their free will (and i am paraphrasing him terribly). I can see this myself. When i look at someone's charts in the two systems, and i can see the clear outcomes of someone's dasa cycles in the vedic system, i can tell the person what i see, but i don't know much about how to actually help the person other than that. I know about gems, mantras, pujas, etc., and i have no doubt that these things help, but i don't know how to counsel the person to make more conscious use of their state and opportunities, from within the vedic system; this doesn't seem to be the tradition in vedic astrology, as much as the tradition is to predict accurate outcomes.

For it's potential towards fuzziness at times, the western system has more of a tradition of always giving some helpful information to maximize the awareness around what is occurring, and placing all of the life circumstances in a greater perspective of conscious, psychological and spiritual growth. There is also enough prediction in it to be able to sense major trends and transitions, though not as easily and conclusively as the Vedic system. I'd say that Western astrology has about 75-80% of the predictive strength that the Vedic system has--that's just my estimate. One of the big problems in the west, is that a lot of western astrologers don't know how to predict certain things or analyze certain things in a chart well enough. For example, not enough western astrologers will analyze the condition of a house based on the position of the house's ruler/lord. But it can definitely be done. I personally like to use both systems, because i think they are both great, and really great together.

Moses again 5/28

(I wrote this after some discussion happened concerning free will and fate)

This is how i see it: the chart is a divine gift, a map. We can use this chart to enlighten our path to greater consciousness, because it shows us what we look like when we are whole, and the issues that would have to be dealt with along the journey towards wholeness. The greater our consciousness is, the less of an influence our astrological influences will be on us. I think Lucy has mentioned that she's seen people who didn't seem particularly ruled by their charts (pardon me if i'm misquoting you, Lucy). In this sense, i see my role as an astrologer as helping the person evolve beyond their need to consult an astrologer, or at least beyond the influence of their chart! Since i myself am not beyond the influence of my chart, i can't do this completely, but i think i can help someone get much further along the way.

So i practice astrology primarily to help others raise their consciousness, to use the map of oneself until one has mastered what it refers to. In this respect, Free will is the essential factor in my approach to astrology. I think that consciousness only increases through greater self-awareness, which can lead to more positive free will choices. My aim in astrology is to serve the other's self-mastery, and i know the birth chart can be a great tool for this.

From this perspective, what value is there in sheer prediction? So what if i know that i'm going to be the president or die a beggar? What does that really do for my awareness? Has this information REALLY helped me, or just helped me to know the future? I don't mean to sound like i'm challenging anyone, because i'm not, i'm just putting forward a question to think about.

Moses Again: 5/28

(concerning how the psychological approach is vague and cannot be scientifically confirmed or falsified)

I think you are entirely right to criticize this. I think astrological psycho-analysis is very difficult to scientifically quantify as accurate, because it is not something that can easily be tested. I think this is a problem. Yet i also have no doubt that, for myself, i have great insight into my own and others psyche's with the tool of western-tropical astrology. And a lot of other people feel the same. I think if we didn't have real insight into people's psychology, western-tropical astrology would not be as widely consulted as it is, and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Moses Say 5/29

(concerning tropical, and that a lot of people also thought the earth was flat)

Very true, except that western-tropical astrology has been confirmed over and over by individuals who have seen it working. No one ever flew into outer space to see if the world was flat--it was an irrational guess. Granted, the testing of western-tropical astrology is not the most scientific or rational kind of testing, but i for one have no doubt that i have seen it verified.

(concerning: are we at a point of a paradigm shift in astrology, with new approaches vying for legitimacy and control of key journals)

If we are at this point, then i think it's a good thing, but also a sad thing. True, any real system out to be able to back itself up, and so i think western-tropical astrology should also do this, and i would say that it certainly has to many satisfied people. The vedic challenge seems like one that is making the entire astrological community wiser and better, and that is something that i think western astrologers owe a lot of appreciation to vedic astrologers for.

But what's sad to me is the kind of aggression and arrogance that i find often happening in this exchange. Western-tropical astrology is very valuable in my opinion, and it just seems to me that rather than going AT each other over the differences, and trying to dominate the scene, we could be more cooperative and complimentary to each other. For rather than against. Both rather than either/or. If western astrology was complete garbage, then yes, we should throw it out, but IT ISN'T. In my opinion, it's incredibly wonderful and useful

love and aloha,
moses

Moses Say: 5/28

(concerning the possibility that western astrology might work in spite of the tropical zodiac)

I do not agree with this. I have seen innumerable instances where the western system works specifically because of, or rather in conjunction with, the tropical zodiac. For example:

1. a transitting planet entering a new tropical sign, such as when Saturn went into Gemini a little over a month ago. Now this has meaning and influence, a) as a general influence/trend/experience for everyone, period, but b) further influence when we look at the shift into a new whole-sign house for everyone alive. Or c) for Sun-in-Gemini's, or people with any planet in Gemini, for example, Saturn in Gemini's would have probably started feeling their Saturn return coming on at this time.
   
   2) secondary progressions shifting into different signs. For example, the secondary progressed ASC, MC, Sun, or Moon changing signs, just to mention some. Because this is one of the most important features of secondary progressions, this second example is worth the strength of many examples.
   
   3) important generational influences. We know what the Pluto in Leo's are like, versus the Pluto in Cancer's, Pluto in Virgo's, etc. Another important mini-generation are the Saturn-sign generations. There's a world of difference between tropical Saturn in Leo's or Saturn in Cancer's or Saturn in Virgo's, for example.
   
   4) synastry. I may write a later post on how i find western-tropical synastry (relationship analysis) to be much more accurate than vedic-sidereal synastry. I do think there are great things about vedic-sidereal synastry too though, so i'll leave that potentially for later.
   
   5) the significance of a transit to the middle degree of a tropical zodiac sign is extremely significant as a turning point, or crisis point, in the whole cycle. This also comes strongly into play in the cases of whole-sign tropical house systems.
   
   6) Relocation. The importance of say, the tropical rising sign in a certain place can be extraordinarily significant to a person's personal experience of that place.
   
   7) Let us not forget, the all-important insight into the psyche and personality that the tropical zodiac gives.